Benefits of the Marshmallow Herb
with Lucy Jones

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A few months ago, a listener emailed me to suggest I bring herbalist Lucy Jones on the podcast - and I’m so glad she did! I bought one of Lucy’s books and almost immediately filled it with notes and highlights, and I was delighted when she agreed to come on the show and talk about one of my favorite plants, the marshmallow herb.

In this conversation, Lucy shared all about an amazing, often-overlooked way that she works with the marshmallow herb – including how she literally used it to save someone’s leg! You can find a beautifully illustrated recipe card for Lucy’s Marshmallow Leaf Fomentation in the section below.

The marshmallow herb is a lovely plant with so many gifts! Here are just a few ways you can work with it to benefit your health:

► As a soothing tea to cool inflammation in the gut

► Applied as a poultice to rashy, irritated skin

► As a cold infusion to ease dry coughs

Check out the entire episode to learn even more about the marshmallow herb, including a fascinating historic use that can still be helpful in modern times!

By the end of this episode, you’ll know:

► Why it’s important to consider emotional factors to support physical healing

► How developing personal relationships with plants can help you be a better herbalist

► Six health issues that can benefit from marshmallow’s gifts

► Why Lucy often reaches for marshmallow leaf instead of its root

► Important considerations for taking marshmallow alongside pharmaceuticals

► and so much more…

For those of you who don’t know her, Lucy Jones is a medical herbalist with a busy high street practice, Myrobalan Clinic, in Somerset, UK. She grows or gathers the majority of the herbs that she works with and is a passionate proponent of self-sufficient herbalism. Prior to qualifying in western herbalism, she studied Tibetan Medicine with the great master Khenpo Troru Tsenam. This experience deeply influences her approach to therapeutic practice, as well as her relationship with the herbs that she works with. She originally trained in agriculture and forestry and has two degrees from the University of Oxford. Her books Self Sufficient Herbalism and A Working Herbal Dispensary are published by Aeon Books.

I’m excited to share our conversation with you today!

Would you like to learn more from Lucy? Her publisher, Aeon Books, has generously offered a 20% discount on both of her books through January 19, 2025! If you’re in the US, go to https://health.aeonbooks.com/search?Keywords=lucy+jones and use discount code LJ20.  Readers in the UK and the rest of the world can use this link: https://health.aeonbooks.co.uk/search?Keywords=lucy+jones

-- TIMESTAMPS -- for Benefits of Marshmallow Herb

• 01:09 - Student spotlight
• 02:55 - Introduction to Lucy Jones
• 04:33 - Lucy’s herbal path
• 21:02 - How Lucy leans on both Tibetan and Western herbal medicine in her practice
• 30:26 - The importance of connecting with the plants
• 34:13 - Marshmallow for gangrene and necrosis
• 45:22 - Marshmallow leaf fomentation
• 48:40 - Marshmallow to heal the gut
• 54:42 - Special considerations for working with marshmallow
• 56:55 - When to reach for marshmallow leaf vs. the root
• 1:04:29 - Lucy’s book The Working Herbal Dispensary
• 1:08:40 - Lucy’s book Self-Sufficient Herbalism
• 1:11:43 - How herbalism has surprised Lucy
• 1:20:46 - Herbal tidbit

Get Your Free Recipe!

The marshmallow herb is a well-known plant ally, but fewer people have heard about its amazing healing action when there's tissue necrosis. This fomentation can be applied if necrotic tissue has developed, for example in the extremities such as the toes.  I've seen almost miraculous results with this recipe in patients who were at risk of having toes (or their lower leg) amputated.

Ingredients:

• 4 handfuls of marshmallow leaves, fresh or dried
• 2 pints of boiling water
• Strips of sterile muslin cloth for application

Directions:

1. Steep marshmallow leaves in just-boiled water for at least 10 minutes to make a strong tea.
2. Strain the liquid and soak previously-boiled strips of muslin cloth in the liquid.
3. Gently wring out excess liquid and apply the warm moist cloth to the affected area.
4. Repeat the process with fresh strips of cloth as they cool. Continue the treatment for 20 minutes, twice a day.

Connect with Lucy

• Website | MyrobalanClinic.com
• Instagram | @myrobalanclinic
• Facebook | Myrobalan Clinic
• Patreon | Lucy Jones

Transcript of the 'Benefits of Marshmallow Herb with Lucy Jones' Video

Rosalee de la Forêt:
Hello and welcome to the Herbs with Rosalee Podcast, a show exploring how herbs heal as
medicine, as food and through nature connection. I’m your host, Rosalee de la Forêt. I created
this Channel to share trusted herbal wisdom so that you can get the best results when
relying on herbs for your health. I love offering up practical knowledge to help you dive deeper
into the world of medicinal plants and seasonal living.

Each episode of the Herbs with Rosalee Podcast is shared on YouTube, as well as your favorite
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Rosalee de la Forêt:

Okay, grab your cup of tea and let’s dive in.

Before diving into today’s interview, I’m thrilled to introduce a new feature on the podcast, The Herbs with Rosalee Student Spotlight. Each week we’ll take a moment to celebrate one of our amazing students and their inspiring contributions to our herbal learning community. 

This week’s spotlight shines on Michael Crean, Sr. who is in Georgia. Rooted Medicine Circle in 2024 was Michael’s first course with us and he really dove in. In addition to participating in the course community, Mike also submitted thoughtful reviews throughout the certificate process. He has a small farm off the grid and shared photos and anecdotes of farm life with us. Mike’s capstone project for the course was inspiring and reached a young and impressionable audience with a lot of material that we covered in Rooted Medicine Circle. His capstone contains some talking points slides along with activities to guide and experience with kids covering things like awareness, respect, sustainability, plant gifts and more. He wrote from the presentations I’ve already done. I can attest that this is the first time many of them have ever been exposed to the herbal world. What a gift that Mike has given to these children. That’s awesome, Mike! Thank you.

To honor Mike’s contributions, Mountain Rose Herbs will be sending him a $50 gift certificate to stock up on sustainably grown and harvested herbal supplies. Mountain Rose Herbs is my go-to for high quality organic spices, herbal remedies and even hard to find botanicals. They ship all over the US and have a massive selection of products to fuel your herbal adventures. Thank you to Mountain Rose Herbs for supporting our amazing students.

To get your own high quality herbs and help support this show, use this link to go to Mountain Rose Herbs. 

I originally heard about Lucy from a listener who wrote in to recommend her on the show, and I am so grateful that person did because I’ve become a huge fan of her work. Lucy obviously adores the plants and I love that she emphasizes forming a personal connection with the plants that we work with. 

In this conversation, you’ll get to hear some amazing case studies about marshmallow, in which marshmallow literally saves a person’s leg. As well as some insights, I want us to have a busy practice and run an herbal apothecary.

For those of you who don’t already know her, Lucy Jones is a medical herbalist with a busy high street practice, Myrobalan Clinic, in Somerset, UK. She grows or gathers the majority of the herbs that she works with and is a passionate proponent of self-sufficient herbalism. Prior to qualifying in Western herbalism, she studied Tibetan medicine with the great master, Khenpo Troru Tsenam. This experience deeply influenced her approach to therapeutic practice as well as her relationship with the herbs that she works with. She originally trained in agriculture and forestry and has two degrees from the University of Oxford. Her books, Self-sufficient Herbalism and A Working Herbal Dispensary are published by Aeon. 

Lucy, I’m so excited to have you on the show. I’ve been looking forward to this for so long. Your book is like my go-to book right now, so I feel like a fangirl by having you on. So super excited and just welcome! Welcome to the show!

Lucy Jones: 

Thank you! I think the fangirl thing is mutual, actually. I’m really excited to be on and it’s an absolute honor to be here, so yeah.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wonderful! I’m just so excited. I want to ask you 20 questions right now, but I’m going to learn to pace myself. I’m really excited to hear your story. You have, I would say, something I’ve never seen before, a unique backstory. I’m excited just to hear more about that from you. How did you get started in all this?

Lucy Jones: 

Well, I think—it’s so difficult to distill it in a way, but I do remember as a small child, I was just so at home with plants from the earliest age. I had two grandmothers who are very keen gardeners and we had amazing gardens. I just spent a lot of time hanging out with the plants and just being really happy. I think that left its mark on me. Now, I always—so being with the plants is being like a constant, I suppose, in my life because we moved around quite a lot and I just always was drawn to being with plants before I even really knew about herbal medicine, I suppose. 

When I was at school, I started to become so interested in herbs that when we had a school prize, which I was fortunate enough to win the school prize for a year once or twice. We would be given a book token and what you did was you chose the book that you wanted and then they would stick the prize plate inside it and I chose the herbal. That was the first thing. I still got it, actually. I think that was the first book that I had to do with herbs. Anyway, that just I suppose—I feel like the seed was just already there. It just blossomed. Despite my efforts-

Rosalee de la Forêt: 

I’m curious, Lucy. Sorry to interrupt. I’m just curious because as you’re saying, as a young child, you got your first herbal book. I’m just curious the differences between what it might be here in North America vs. UK. Was herbalism more easier to find? Here, I would say 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, kids weren’t asking for herbal books. They just didn’t really exist, so I’m just curious. Was there a  stronger accepted quality of plants can be medicine?

Lucy Jones: 

I think so because here, especially in the UK, we have, I suppose an unusual history as regards to herbal medicine because in most places, it’s so—we are really regulated. Don’t get me wrong. In a lot of places, it’s actually not okay to be in medical practice. There are a lot of restrictions as to what you can do and what you can’t do. Here was tight regulations. We have Henry VIII to thank for something called “Quacks charter.” He made this law that—I’m probably not quoting it correctly, but it was something like let no person wise in the way of herbs be hindered from their work or something like that. That law is still on the statute books. Whilst it’s not legal to practice herbal medicine in other European countries, we have this kind of anomaly which long may it last. It means that I can quite happily—I have training, obviously, and insurance and so on, but I’m able to practice full time and see patients and work with them without fear of being burnt at the stake or something. 

Rosalee de la Forêt: 

Would you say it’s like—because here, even though people can practice under the radar a bit, it’s still not generally—people don’t, in general, know what herbalism is. Would you think there’s a more general understanding herbalists exist and plants as medicine is an okay thing?

Lucy Jones: 

I think—I mean, I suppose the world I live in, my circle, it’s very much accepted and it’s definitely a growing movement and people understand it. But there are still a lot of people who don’t really understand how herbal medicine works. They know about it, but they just think, “What herb can I take for this and that?” They don’t realize there’s more nuance. I think it’s really becoming such a big thing. I think that what we probably both share is that our countries have challenges with our health system that’s quite overstretched, and so people are—I find that more and more people are coming to me because they are distressed by the service they received in conventional healthcare or the wait that they’re having to have. They feel that it’s making them look at herbal medicine as another route. It gets very exciting for herbal medicine. It’s really nice that it’s—it has always shown hasn’t it? That it’s going through an upward trajectory I think at the moment.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Absolutely. Thank you for answering my curiosity there. I know one thing for people, if you’re not familiar, physiomedicalism, which is a major form of herbalism that developed in North America, actually left North America and went to the UK and flourished there. But that’s neither here nor there. I want to get back to your story, but thanks for going on a little tangent with me.

Lucy Jones:

Actually, I want to just slightly. My teacher—I’m going to fast forward to when I was studying Western herbal medicine. My teacher studied with the physiomedical school in the UK, so there’s that nice circle.

Anyway, back to the story, one of my grandmothers as well as being a gardener, was also a healer and a radionics practitioner, so I grew up with the idea of dowsing and ley lines, and all sorts of really intuitive things. I was also quite a rational—I have this kind of Piscean thing of being very rational on the one hand, and being really into biochemistry and plant physiology, but also being really, “Wow! This ley line.” This sort of interesting thing.

I was really attracted to Tibetan culture when I think I found it. I went to boarding school. I was probably feeling a bit lost on my first day. I was only about 12 or something. I went to the library and I just found this book that was called, Seven Years in Tibet. I read that from cover to cover. It’s a travelogue, really, but it just introduced me to this. I just became really interested in Tibetan culture and Tibetan Buddhism, and that never left me. Later on, I went up to Scotland and connected with Samye Ling Tibetan Centre and met my spiritual teacher, Akong Rinpoché. At that point, I just knew that the whole, that path for me was going to be interwoven with any work that I did with healing or herbs or anything in the future. It just felt really fundamental.

So, I’ve made that connection, and also, still really interested in herbs, but didn’t have any thought of taking a formal qualification in herbal medicine. But then I found out that there was going to be a Tibetan medicine course being taught at Samye Ling Tibetan Centre in Scotland and I just thought that I’ve got to be on that course! That is just so what I want to do. I thought that’s just so amazing. There are only 12 or so places offered originally and I applied thinking this is going to be great. I can’t wait to do the course. I’m going to give up my job. I’m going to just dedicate myself to it.

I went and spoke to Akong Rinpoché and asked, “Could I have a place in this course? I feel so drawn to it. I just feel it’s my destiny to do it.” He just said no. I was really a bit devastated, I have to say, because that wasn’t the kind of way that story was supposed to go. I thought, “Oh, okay.” I went away and thought about it. Actually, I do really want to do it so I’m going to ask again. I feel like maybe I should ask in a slightly different way, but I’ll ask again. So, I went. About a couple of months later, I went and asked Akong. I said, “I really feel that this is my destiny and I feel such a strong pull. Please can you reconsider?” He said, “No. It’s a course for people that already have a medical qualification. You don’t have a medical qualification, so you can’t do it.” I was absolutely gutted. I really was gutted. I just had this whole destiny thing shouting at me like I was supposed to be on this course.

Then I thought—another month or so went by and I thought in a lot of Tibetan traditions, people have to ask three times for things. I thought maybe this is the answer. Maybe it’s because I haven’t asked three times. Also, I reflected on the actual course, which was incredibly rare opportunity because this Tibetan master called, Khenpo Troru Tsenam, who was the professor of the Lhasa mintsikang, was actually coming over to Scotland for two months a year for four years. It was unbelievable that this was happening. He was absolutely incredible, high master and lineage holder of Tibetan medicine and these few Westerners were having the chance to study with this amazing person! I thought I need to just recognize this isn’t just something that you can just do and think, “Yeah, I want to do it.” You have to really be worthy of that opportunity because it’s a rare and precious thing.

I went and plucked up my courage. I thought I’m going to ask a third time. If he says no, that’s it. I said, “I really understand it’s a rare opportunity. I just still feel that my destiny is to do this course. Is there any way I can do this course?” He said, “Well, yes, if you agree to study Western herbal medicine afterwards and become fully qualified. So, I did that Tibetan course for four years and then did a course in Western herbal medicine for five or six years. Also, part of that deal—my deal with my spiritual teacher, if you can make a deal with your spiritual teacher, I don’t know, but that’s what I’m going to call it—was to study Western herbal medicine, but also to open a clinic. Once I had qualified in Western herbal medicine, to open a clinic that combined the two approaches and this where I’m sitting is Myrobalan Clinic, and it is that manifestation of what he asked me to do.

I sometimes think that if he hadn’t asked me to do it, I don’t know if I would have slugged and studied for another six years. I don’t know if I would’ve actually, pushed on through and started this clinic, but I did and here I am. It’s such a privilege, really, to be living my dream after all of that hard work. It’s just amazing.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That is such a wonderful story. I love how driven you were and how you just knew that it was your destiny. Like you were just saying, it’s like by saying “no” twice and then putting a qualification on it, it led you down this bigger path then maybe you’d at first thought you’re headed down. That’s a really fun story. I love that because I don’t know what would have happened if Lucy had said no? Or just accepted the “no?” I mean, “I guess it’s not for me.” I’m sure you would have found maybe another way forward or whatever, but I love that. The persistence there is [crosstalk]

Lucy Jones:

Very stubborn.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

It’s wonderful. So, for four years, you studied Tibetan medicine. Was that because you—I’m assuming that most of the other students had a background of some sort in some kind of medical qualification. How was that for you? Is it like you’re thrown into the hot water? Did everything make sense in the beginning? Was there some struggle there?

Lucy Jones: 

I think, actually, as regards to teaching, we were all probably in the same boat because it was such a different approach. I think Akong Rinpoché’s plan was that once we had finished the course, because it wouldn’t ever be a recognized qualification, it was better for people to have a solid grounding within UK or wherever they were living within that system, so that they could introduce the Tibetan medicine into their work without breaking the law or whatever. I think that was a really skillful thing to do, actually.  And there’s so much that Tibetan medicine can bring to other modalities.

Some of the other people on the course, there was a midwife. There was a GP. I remember there were reiki practitioners and Chinese medicine practitioners, all sorts of different people. It was just a fascinating environment to learning because we were all together. None of us were struggling with the actual concepts of what we were being taught, but it was being taught in Tibetan. We were asked to learn Tibetan so that was quite a big thing.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wow! Wow! Oh, my gosh! So, how did you learn Tibetan?

Lucy Jones: 

We had-

Rosalee de la Forêt:

At school? 

Lucy Jones: 

We had classes, but we were fortunate that the daily teachings were translated by absolutely excellent translator, Katia Holmes, so we were really lucky. I think this thing that when you’re learning a tradition that’s being written in another language, if you miss so much nuance, if you don’t understand that language yourself, there’s a lot of very subtle concepts and things being explained. It’s an ongoing process. I’m still learning. I’m never going to be fluent I’m sure, but at least, to be able to read texts and understand some of the different meanings is really helpful. Also, when looking at Tibetan plants and trying to understand about them, most of the resources are written in Tibetan. If you can at least read the name of the plant, that’s helpful, and its properties. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

This is going to be a big question. You said that Tibetan medicine can bring so much to different modalities. Is there an example you can give of that? Again, I realize it’s a really big question, but my curiosity was piqued. 

Lucy Jones: 

I’m so happy that you asked, actually. Tibetan medicine is very much—it’s Buddhist medicine. You can’t separate spiritual aspects from the physical aspects. I think that—I mean, all of us who are working with herbs, absolutely recognize that when people are unwell, it’s not just physical. These emotional factors, trauma or even just habitual tendencies that we don’t realize are making us ill. These kind of, perhaps slightly less physiological factors, can be a little bit more difficult to bring into the conversation sometimes with people.

Actually, having a Tibetan medicine framework where that’s just part of it—it’s a humoral system—you can talk to your patient about “From a Western perspective, this is what I would say is going on with you, but it’s interesting to look at it as well from a Tibetan perspective.” For example, a lot of people have anxiety. Anxiety is generally linked to an excess of the air humor in Tibetan medicine. When you start to talk about what that means if somebody has too much air humor in their system, it means that they’ve got an inner instability that you could look at that not in terms of a mental health instability, but in terms of blood sugar or adrenals, surges or biorhythm out of synch.

The body is so unsettled because it doesn’t know where it is. The way to counteract that air humor is to do things like eat regularly. Eat nourishing foods. Go to bed at the same time. All of this advice that we probably give, it’s got a nice framework when it’s explained in terms of the humors and then the things that make this humor worse is insomnia, grief, irregular eating, not going to bed at the same time, having shifting habits. I think people really understand that it’s another way of looking at the same thing. There’s lots more to it, but that’s just a bit of an example. I think it opens up the conversation because I feel that I’m able to talk in that way.

Also, the other thing is that I do pulse diagnosis and tongue diagnosis and that really is helpful to know what’s going on. You can think you know what’s going on and then when you take the pulse, often you think yes, that was absolutely right, but sometimes you think, “That’s not what I was expecting.” Having taken the pulse, you can really get more of an insight as to what’s going on.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Actually, what you’re sharing about being able to work with Tibetan medicine for a bigger picture, it brought forth a memory for me. Your book here, A Working Herbal Dispensary, as I mentioned, has become a favorite of mine. I had a friend come over, my friend, Leslie Lekos. She always looks at my books and wants to know, “What are you reading right now?” I was like, “This book, you have to check out this book!” and she was also floored by it. She read it for quite a while. I think she just comes to read my book, so we don’t hang out. I was kidding. She read it for a while and she came back to me and she said, “Did you get that book used?” I said, “No.” She was like, “There are highlights and scribbles all over.” I was like, “I know! It’s just so good! I’ve been just marking all this stuff.”

I was thinking about that and I looked today and there’s this one thing that I just marked on here. It says, to quote you, “I often include within a prescription herbs that will help to shift mental and emotional attitudes. Of course, the patient will be making dietary and lifestyle changes and will most likely be taking herbs to support physical healing at the root cause, but to support the emotions and help support a shift in habitual thought patterns is very helpful for the overall healing process.” This goes with what you’re saying and I think that’s such a—I had marked it with my little pink marker there because that’s so important. If somebody comes to us with their main concern is psoriasis or whatever physical thing. If there’s an internal landscape of anxiety just as an example, it’s going to be very difficult to shift that.

Lucy Jones:

Definitely.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I was just in the first couple of pages of your book. There’s so much wisdom there. You really jump right into it as well. 

Lucy Jones: 

It’s typical me. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Now, Lucy, in your practice, do you feel like you draw upon Tibetan medicine and Western herbalism or that training? Do you feel like you pull upon those equally as your own unique blend? 

Lucy Jones: 

I would say that I’m very much working as a Western herbalist in terms of my registered ability to practice. I’m growing and gathering the majority of the herbs that I work with and they are Western herbs, for the most part, although I do prescribe some Tibetan formulae that I’ve made.

In terms of prescriptions of herbal prescriptions, it’s probably mostly Western, but in terms of my approach, I would say it’s pretty—my primary way of looking at a case is Tibetan medicine but it’s helpful. Obviously, I’m trained in Western herbal medicine and I’m able to—I think it’s good to reach a patient where they are. Sometimes I have patients that come to me who are General Medical practitioners or hospital consultants or midwives or vets or people of very allopathic background. Sometimes I think I’d rather explain things in a Western modality for this person than sort of jump right in with humors and energies and things like that.

It’s interesting how people, as herbs, sort of show them the template of being well, that’s how I would look at it. They’ve become much more balanced and open to these other realities and other ways of looking at health, so it’s lovely to see. I think I would say I can’t look at a case without thinking about Tibetan medicine. 

Also, the other thing that really—all my people that learn with me on Patreon or wherever they – they’re so used to this but I have this thing that in Tibetan medicine, it’s considered unethical if you give somebody herbs but you haven’t addressed their diet and lifestyle. It’s just not considered okay because it’s like you haven’t prepared the ground for those herbs to work. If somebody—I had a patient once who’s drinking 20 cups of coffee a day and wasn’t sleeping. It would be ridiculous in that case to give that person herbs to help her sleep. It wouldn’t work and then the person would go away and say, “Well, I tried herbs and it didn’t work,” so I think that we owe it to the herbs to make sure that as far as possible, we’re explaining the link that, yes, the herbs can help you but there are other things that you can put in place that will help them really do their job and work. You got people that are impressed with herbal medicine instead of being disappointed. I think we owe it to herbal medicine to stick up for it. That whole thing about you must look at their lifestyle first is just embedded into my consciousness.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love that. I love that. I was just thinking the other day if I had to find myself as a practitioner or a teacher, I was definitely a holistic. I can’t imagine not talking about those things because, like you said, you’re just really not setting anybody up for success if it’s left behind. I find it so impressive that you gather or grow most of the herbs that you work with because maintaining the energy and effort that goes into that and then maintaining your apothecary and a lot of organization goes into that and dispensing, etc., and then having a busy practice on top of it, that’s very impressive to me. I know that you’re very passionate about self-sufficient herbalism and I’m wondering how that shows up for you. Obviously, I mentioned some ways, but in terms of your offerings and teaching, what does that mean to you to be a self-sufficient herbalist?

Lucy Jones:

It is something I’m really passionate about because I think when I was studying Western herbal medicine, I expected everybody that was a Western herbalist to be growing their own herbs or gathering their own herbs. The school I was taught at, their tutors were very much into growing and gathering their own herbs, so I just honestly thought that’s what everybody did. I didn’t realize it was unusual situation. When I graduated and I went out into the big, wide world, I was surprised that the norm was people buying in most of their stock and not always really knowing what the plant was like. I don’t want to sound critical because we’ve all been taught in different ways, and obviously, the way that I work is quite time-consuming, but I feel that that link to the living plant is so important because there’s more to the plants than just a bottle on a shelf, isn’t there?

To me, it’s like—I suppose as we go on our herbal path and we move along it, we start out by feeling that we’re going to use herbs to help people get better, but as the herbs get under our skin, we build up a close relationship with them as individuals. I feel that one of the paths to understanding that is self-sufficient herbalism. It doesn’t mean to say to be completely self-sufficient, but just that connection even if it’s one plant that you’ve got to know, I would still count that as being under their umbrella. It’s just like being connected to the living herbs as opposed to being disconnected from them. Different people will be on a different scale of whether they’re growing one in a pot just to be able to see what it’s like, or whether they’re able to go and gather, or whether they’re able to grow enough for their clinic. It doesn’t really matter where you are on that, but I just feel like as long as there’s a connection.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love that. I’m so grateful I started my training within ethnobotany apprenticeship where it was fieldwork. We were outside with the plants. I did not know one plant before I started that program, so I got to learn all the plants in the habitat. That wasn’t like an herbalist program though. It was really ethnobotany and so grateful for that. By the time I got my clinical training, the clinical training was really more in the classroom and not in the field. It’s kind of stark difference and so I’m just really grateful that I had the roots with the connection, and now I have a garden. I grow one astragalus plant. It does not supply my astragalus needs, but I just need that connection with the plants [crosstalk]

Lucy Jones:

You get it then.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yeah, that’s the beauty, is that connection and relationship there. One of my favorite plants to connect with, especially this summer actually, I spend a lot of time with marshmallow. I’m so excited that you chose marshmallow and I’m so excited for your recipe. We’ll get to that in a little bit. I’m curious. You have many plants you have a deep relationship with. Why did marshmallow come up for you as the one to talk about today?

Lucy Jones:

I was like a kid in the sweet shop. What was I going to choose to talk about? I suppose marshmallow—I don’t want them getting offended because they’re all my favorites, but I do have perhaps an inner circle of plants that I feel I’ve got to know. We’ve all got different levels of kinship with the herbs that we work with. It’s like an inner circle perhaps that I’ve really got to know more deeply, and I hope that I can expand that and continually learn and get to know others, but marshmallow is definitely in there. 

I thought that marshmallow is a plant that’s often prescribed. It’s not an unusual herb, but I feel that the way that I was taught, I might be able to offer an extra little twist of what marshmallow can help us with and that was this ability of marshmallow to tackle necrosis.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yes. I’m very excited for this. I just have a quick backstory I wanted to say. When I did—I remember researching marshmallow at some point, and learning that it was once called “mortification root” and used for gangrene. I meant to check on this, but I didn’t. I’m pretty sure my monograph currently states, “This is a historical use and it would be interesting to see if herbalists would pick this up again, but doubtful” or something like that. Definitely, my interest was piqued and so when I saw this, for me, I was like, “Oh, my gosh!” and heard the experiences, I was like, here it is! I thought this is something that maybe had been lost to history. Anyway, I’m so excited. I really hope—I’m just excited for you to share more about this and your experience with it, so I will let you continue.

Lucy Jones:

It’s lovely because I honestly only recently discovered. This is terrible. I mean, I always lead into enough studies, but I only recently discovered that it was known as mortification root, actually, and that wasn’t the thing that led me to it. When I was studying, Western herbal medicine, I had a tutor called, “Edith” and she was absolutely amazing. She took me under her wing a bit. She and I would have chats and speak on the phone a lot. She told me that marshmallow was for necrosis. I just thought, “What is going on there?”

Marshmallow is so—I should just briefly outline—marshmallow is such an amazing herb for its moistening and demulcent. It’s anti-inflammatory. Anything that ends in “itis,” you could give marshmallow for bronchitis, colitis, diverticulitis, tonsillitis, tracheatis, whatever. Anything that’s inflammatory is going to be—marshmallow’s going to be lovely, soothing, helpful and calming. It’s just great. It has incredible properties, but this extra, I’m excited that through your work and your lovely podcast that maybe more people will be able to have this knowledge. That’s what excites me and that’s why in a way I chose it because I want the herbs to be able to fulfill their destiny.

Anyway, Edith told me it’s for necrosis. I don’t know if I’m ever going to see necrosis in the 21st century, really. Really interesting. I’m a bit of a nerd and I don’t forget things like that. When I did have patients coming in with necrosis, I immediately remembered. Oh, my goodness, marshmallow! Can I give an example of one of these-

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I was going to ask because I have read the book so I might know what’s coming, but I’m really excited for you. It was just so inspiring, really. It just shows how necrosis might show up in the modern day too.

Lucy Jones:

I think this—sorry.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I was going to say too there’s something to be said about responsible. If somebody—but I think the case studies, at least, that you shared in the book shows people had searched for other ways and they were not being helped. Because if somebody came to me with gangrene or necrosis and I had no experience working with that, I probably wouldn’t say, “Sure. Step into my home office and I’ll take a guess at this. Good luck. Let’s cross our fingers.” That’s not how I would do it. Your case studies really illustrate that as well, so I’m so excited for you to share these.

Lucy Jones:

Thank you so much for saying that. I think it’s really important to emphasize that because it would be quite irresponsible to just go off-piste and say, “Yeah, I can sort that.” We’re not actually allowed to make claims anyway. Both of the case studies that I’m going to briefly—I mean, they’re summarized cases rather than formal case studies. They are actually where both of the patients that I’m going to talk about, they had been down an allopathic route. If we start with the patient that I think – I had to check what I called him because it’s not his real name. I had to look in my own book and – I called him “Charles,” I believe.

Anyway, he was in his seventies. He’s such a funny patient, really always joking. He’s a Type 1 diabetic and he’d had a history of quite serious heart disease. He’d had a triple bypass about 15 years previously. His main problem when I first met him was that when people are Type 1 diabetics and they’re injecting insulin, over time they can actually develop insulin resistance, so they actually become Type 2 diabetic, as well as Type 1. He was finding that his diabetes nurse was concerned because he’s needing to increase his dose of insulin. His blood sugar wasn’t stable. I actually was helping him to get a more stable blood sugar, which he did do and his consultant was very pleased, but that’s another herb and another story.

Then about a year later, I’d actually signed him off because he changed his diet and he’s doing more exercise. I should say at this point that this patient had one leg because he had lost—his missing leg had been lost because of diabetic-induced necrosis. He was in a wheelchair and he struggled about a bit on his one leg. He also had a very ill-fitting prosthesis, which really made him—it was very sore. They told him he was too old to get a new one, so they weren’t going to bother. Poor him. Anyway, he took it all in good part. He was always smiling and joking.

I got a call from him about a year later saying that he had cut his toe and it had developed into necrosis. He was in the hospital. He was frightened that he was going to lose his second leg and that’s what they were talking about. They were talking about they were going to have to amputate because the necrosis was spreading up from the toe up his leg. He said that he hadn’t been able to take his usual circulatory supporting herbs that I prescribed him because he was in hospital. Understandably, when people are in hospital, you can’t always carry on with your herbal regime because the hospital feels responsible, so I understand that he had stopped. He rang me and he said, “I’m going to discharge myself. Can I just come and see you straight away?” That’s what he did. He discharged himself, and his wife who was absolutely amazing, who had been a nurse before she retired so she was really on the case with everything, she brought him and they came to my clinic.

I was a little bit nervous because a necrotic leg was not something that I had loads of experience in practice. I understood the process, but I wasn’t sure what I was going to be seeing. I thought you got to grow up and do it, so he unwrapped his bandages and he had—don’t worry if you’re squeamish. It’s not going to be too bad. He had three toes on the foot that were completely black. The foot was partially blackened. His lower leg up to the knee was like a dark purple and it was really quite cold to the touch. I thought, “Okay, so that’s what necrosis looks like.”

I thought, okay. Firstly, he had been on circulatory supporting herbs. He was taking a couple of pills everyday of a capsule containing things like a little bit of ginger and chili, and also an antispasmodic like cramp bark and wild yam just to open up the vessels. I can’t remember what else is in there, but it’s just to keep everything moving. Also [unclear] on Crataegus. I’m sorry, hawthorn. Anyway, I recognized the need to support the circulation, especially as he’d been in hospital sitting in a bed. Then I thought but also marshmallow, marshmallow, marshmallow, marshmallow. This is the chance, marshmallow, for you to shine! So, I gave him marshmallow internally, marshmallow root in capsules, and then I got his wife to do this marshmallow leaf fomentation where there is a recipe that’s going to be available. After this, you can find it, but basically, it’s a very easy recipe because you make a really strong marshmallow leaf tea and then dip a muslin cloth in the hot tea and just apply it onto the area that’s affected.

I honestly am sure that by giving him marshmallow internally and in a fomentation, it’s going to be helpful, so let’s just go for it. Because luckily, his wife was so engaged with the process, I said, “Do it twice a day and leave it on. Swap over the hot cloths. Every time they cool, put a new hot cloth on and keep it for 30 minutes and do that twice a day.” I thought I’m going to just sound confident and I said, “Come back and see me in about three weeks and we’ll see how it’s going.”

Meanwhile, as you pointed out, he was under the care of the hospital consultant. He was being checked and I had that peace of mind that if it got worse and he was in a dangerous situation, he had that healthcare continuity. He went back to the consultants and they were shocked! They were absolutely shocked because it has improved. The necrosis seemed to be receding. When I saw him, which was after the consultants had seen him, this Charles rang me and said, “The consultants are really shocked and they’re talking about I might not need my lower leg amputated now.” That’s pretty good, isn’t it? That’s actually amazing! I was really excited because I thought, “Wow, marshmallow! You’ve come through. That’s incredible!”

When he came here and I was able to examine him, the lower leg was a much better color and it was beginning to be warm. The toes were still quite black, but the foot was looking better. I thought let’s just keep going. Let’s see what happens. In the end, when it came to the hospital’s schedule for sorting it out and amputating, he just lost two toes instead of his leg.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wow!

Lucy Jones:

Thanks to marshmallow! 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yeah, marshmallow. People love this herb because it is one of our best demulcents. It’s sustainable. It’s easy to grow. So many things, but most people don’t think of it for necrosis. It’s a wonderful way to soothe inflammation through the digestive tract, for example, or to help with tightness and dryness in the lungs. I love this so much. I feel like I’ve just been waiting to hear this story for many, many years.

Lucy Jones:

There’s one other. I think perhaps the example I’ve just given is perhaps a more unusual thing that many practitioners you wouldn’t necessarily expect to see something like that. Although diabetes is a common condition so it’s worth remembering, but I think maybe more prevalent is that when you have people with long-standing diverticulitis, you can get necrosis in pockets of the gut. Obviously, it’s not something you can see. Of course, in that case, you can’t really treat that with the fomentation that I’m sharing in my recipe, but it still applies that if somebody has this really, really painful diverticulitis and it’s very acute, and no antibiotics and the treatment doesn’t seem to be helping, then you can suspect maybe this is some necrosis.

I had a patient also in her seventies actually, who I called “Victoria.” She had a really, really severe episode of painful diverticulitis. She couldn’t eat and she just lost so much weight. When she did eat anything, she had explosive diarrhea and terrible pain. She rang me in absolute extreme saying, “I feel like I’m just wasting away. My hospital consultant says that I need to have a colonoscopy, but I can’t have that until I’ve put on weight.” I thought this sounds really extreme. Poor thing. She’s in so much pain, but I did think there’s a possibility here that this is necrosis. I thought I don’t know if this is necrosis. It could just be really acute inflammation, but I thought either way, marshmallow’s got this as best as possible. So, I gave her marshmallow capsules to take six a day, one before and one after each meal.

Now, at that time, she wasn’t even eating so I said, “I want you to take one before, and even if you’re just having a sip of water, have another one so that you’ve got this routine of three so-called “meals a day.” After a little bit of time, she was able to have a bit of food and she started to put on weight. The pain went and she was able to have her surgery, and she had her colon resectioned. She’s actually doing very well. This was probably about 20 years ago. She’s now in her early nineties and she’s stubbornly managing to cope.

I can’t actually prove 100% that there was necrosis there, but I did suspect it because she had repeated treatment with antibiotics and nothing was touching it, and then after the marshmallow therapy, it did really make a massive difference.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Oh, my gosh, Lucy! I love these stories so much. People will ask sometimes, “Are pharmaceuticals as good as—are herbs as good as pharmaceuticals?” and they’re just different. But to say—I think some people think of herbs as being weak or antiquated or a hobby or something for a booboo, but these are powerful beings that bring so much healing and can bring answers when Western medicine sometimes can’t. I love it. Yay, marshmallow!

Lucy Jones:

I think that’s such a good point you’ve made because I think that we don’t always have to know exactly what’s going on. We need to have—obviously we need to know that anything that we give is not going to interact with existing medication or it’s not going to be contraindicated with someone’s condition. Of course, we need to know quite a lot. Sometimes we might not know the exact tiny details of what’s happening, but we can trust that as long as the herbs are safe given that person’s medical history and constitution and their existing drug regime, as long as they’re safe they can actually do things that we never even imagined. If we just trust in the process and we give something that’s safe and then we just watch this magic happening, it’s amazing. It’s so much better to be able to trust in that process as much as we’re able to within the constraints of being safe and within the law. Once we’re able to trust in that process, that’s where the magic happens. There’s magic! Things that we never imagined could happen do happen.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m so grateful for your patients that they were able—that they had an option. They had a choice so that they could get the best of both worlds ultimately, because if they had just had the one choice, we don’t know what their outcome would have been if they just had Western medicine. So, it’s a wonderful thing. I always feel this with herbal practitioners. It’s such a gift to the community that they work in to broaden people’s options out there. I do want to highlight. You’ve mentioned it. There is the recipe for the marshmallow leaf fomentation. People can download that above this transcript, beautifully illustrated as always, something as we’re saying, good to have in your toolbox. Thanks for sharing that, Lucy. Since you were just speaking of safety, maybe I’ll prompt you to share about absorption issues with marshmallow.

Lucy Jones:

I’m glad you brought that up. I was going to mention it. In the example I gave where I asked the patient to take one capsule before and one after eating, you’re absolutely right that marshmallow and other very demulcent, mucilage-rich herbs can impact on absorption. They will make absorption much less and that’s an important consideration if somebody is on, for example, antiepileptic drugs or something that they’re taking orally. You really need to be careful. Actually, I quite often—sorry. I’m getting ahead of myself.

The general advice is that if you’re going to give somebody a marshmallow internally, marshmallow whether it’s leaf or root, whether it’s a capsule or tea or whatever, it’s best to leave it two hours before eating or take it two hours after eating so that there’s a good window where your gut is able to absorb everything normally. But I deliberately, when I have people with very severe IBS or diverticulitis or colitis or whatever, I actually deliberately prescribe it adjacent to the food because the herb is acting as a temporary bandage to help that poor gut heal, and then of course, once it’s healed, then that person is going to be absorbing their food much better anyway, and they won’t need to be taking it. It is something that I’m aware of, but there are cases where it’s a good idea to protect that really inflamed gut from the food that’s scratching past it and making it worse.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love that nuance. Thank you. Something else that’s popping into my head, Lucy, is that I feel like here in North America, people are mostly used to using the root and may not have as much experience with the leaf. I love using the leaves because they’re so abundant. They are wonderfully demulcent as well. They’re a little bit different. I’m wondering if you would speak to that, like when do you reach for the root vs. the leaf, and just anything to share about that and maybe inspire people more towards the leaf as well.

Lucy Jones:

That’s such a great question. I think that I tend to work with the dried powdered root for capsules. The thing is about the root is that it’s a once a year big job to dig them up, wash them, slice them, dry them and everything, and then you’ve got that root and stalk. As you say, the leaves are so abundant. If you’ve never stroked a marshmallow leaf, you need to do it. Make sure you set aside a decent amount of time because you’re going to be addicted to it. It’s just so soft and lovely. These leaves, you can take a harvest of the leaves and then more come. Whereas, when you dig up the root, it’s quite a big operation. It is lovely, don’t get me wrong. The root is a fantastic medicine, but I think sometimes it’s really helpful to be able to prescribe the leaf in things like herbal teas.

If you’ve got somebody with a stomach ulcer or gastritis and you want them to just have a nice herbal tea mix with perhaps calendula and a few other, maybe a bit of chamomile, but marshmallow leaf to provide that demulcency. It’s just so easy to infuse it as a tea in hot water compared to chopping the root and making a decoction. It’s an easier, a more everyday kind of thing that patients can fit in with their schedule. I think with the fomentation, to be perfectly honest, I thought that that would be easier for the patient and his wife. I knew it would be effective. It’s just a lot easier to make tea and dip the cloths in than to go through the whole process with the roots. Either are great, but don’t forget about the leaf. It’s so sustainable and lovely and it’s absolutely wonderful as a tea.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m just thinking about I spent a lot of time, as I mentioned, with marshmallow this summer just being enamored with this beautiful plant. I have it in a raised bed, but it was well-beyond my height. I don’t know, eight, nine feet, ten feet tall is way beyond me. When it was in bloom, I was really surprised that the bees loved it so much because those beautiful flowers are not brilliantly colored. They’re white and some pinkish on them with the stamens and everything. They aren’t incredibly aromatic. They aren’t lavender, for example, but the bees really, really love them. The whole plant is just buzzing with the bees. I find that fascinating. They’re obviously getting some love and some good stuff from the marshmallow as well. 

I find it interesting that you’re working with the powdered root in capsules. I’m actually a big fan of powders. Sometimes I feel like—actually in North America, people don’t like powders as much. Capsules aren’t appreciated much, but I’m a big fan because I like the idea of the whole plant being ingested vs. anything else we do like a tea or an alcohol extraction. It is an extraction and we’re leaving parts of the plant behind.

There are pluses and minuses to it. There’s never one way to do it, but that’s one reason why I love powders is because we get the whole plant. Our digestive system gets to work with it, make decisions and that sort of thing. I don’t know that I’ve ever worked with marshmallow extensively as a powder or in capsules so that’s really interesting to hear that. I’m going to put that in my toolbox. I mainly work with the root as a cold infusion and as a tea. I’m just curious. Do you work with the plant in that way as well?

Lucy Jones:

I don’t tend to prescribe it in that way because it’s not that I have an aversion to it. It’s just that the way that my business works or my clinic works here is that people come in. They have their consultation. I make up their prescription and then they go. Making up the cold infusion doesn’t keep for very long. I would have to anticipate this patient is going to need this and I don’t always know what they’re going to need until they come for their follow-up. I think just from a practical point of view, I might suggest to them that, “You could make this for yourself.” I do sometimes say that, but as regards me actually preparing it for people, it doesn’t quite work. Whereas with the leaves, if I’m giving somebody a packet of herbal tea that I’ve prepared for them, that works really well because it’s in there.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love the practicality. Thanks for sharing that. Lucy, is there anything else that you’d like to share about marshmallow before we move on?

Lucy Jones:

Loads. I was going to say when you said about the bees, I’m sure you know this that when you cut into the root, it smells so sweet, doesn’t it? So, maybe the bees are kind of picking up on that. It’s a very sweet plant and a very nourishing plant. That was just a thought that I had when you were talking about it.

The other thing I was going to say that I think is so amazing is when you look at the roots, they do look like a trachea or bronchi. Have you ever noticed that? The way that they are with the rings around them and I think you’re indicating where you can help because it’s so good for inflammation in those areas. I just really love marshmallow and I think that it can help in so many ways. I very often prescribe capsules and mix the marshmallow powdered root with slippery elm, for example. Sometimes meadowsweet as well, but I really think the marshmallow, if you haven’t got it in your home dispensary or your dispensary, you need it. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Absolutely. I’ve never really used it in capsules to my memory, but I do often make it with pastilles, just the honey mixture. I’m mixing the powdered root with other herbs and mixing that with honey is like a homemade herbal pill, which is great for sore throats or digestive things, everything that marshmallow was gifted with.

Lucy Jones:

I’m going to do that now. You’ve inspired me.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m really excited to talk about both your books. Have I mentioned how much I love The Working Herbal Dispensary? This book is a materia medica book. It’s a substantial book, wonderful hard cover. I love that it has so much information. There’s a template you’re following. We can see things, the energetics of the plants. Sometimes you have or always have historical applications for the plant, and then you also have all these stories, which are just so powerful. I think that’s some of the best things that we can get from practicing herbalists is actual stories that go beyond, “I learned this from...”so and so or this and that. I just love the book and each plant in there.

Let’s talk about the premise of your book because the subtitle here is respecting herbs as individuals and your introduction to this is just so beautiful talking about kind of moving away from this for that herbalism and understanding herbs as individuals. Anyway, I could go on and on, but this is for people who love herbs which I assume that’s people listening to this podcast because this is an herb-based podcast. We talk about herbs here. This is really a treasure and the book I’ve been waiting to have for so long, and I’m just so grateful for. I cannot remember. There was a listener who recommended that I have you on the show. I wish I knew exactly who that was, but if you’re out there listening, thank you for bringing Lucy’s work to my attention and this book.

Lucy Jones:

I’m tearing up. I’m actually tearing up now.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

It’s a treasure. It truly is a treasure. It’s a gift to the herbal community. You have some bits in here about Tibetan herbal medicine too, the humoral system that’s worked within that as well and the elements. Love it so much. Would you add anything about this one? Then we’ll talk about your other one.

Lucy Jones:

I think you really get why I wrote it. I think I was wriggling off the hook a bit about writing an actual herbal because it’s quite a lot to take on. I originally decided to write about 54 herbs because actually, that is quite a lot to write about. My husband said, “Only 54? You usually do 108. That’s a sacred number. You got to do 108.” I thought, “Okay. I’ll do 108.” I’m so glad I did. I think it is about honoring the herbs and helping people that are actually learning herbal medicine to learn about herbs in a way that you actually learn about them as an individual rather than a list of what they do. You need to know what they do. It’s important. It’s just like, “Hey, come on. They’re more than that just to be relegated to a tool like, “I need a diuretic. I could choose this one or this one.” No. Would you say that about your best friend or just anyone that’s blonde? It’s like let’s try and get to know them as individuals. That was my thought, really. It’s like a eulogy honoring, a love story to the herbs that I work with.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That absolutely comes through, absolutely. I couldn’t recommend it more highly. I will say, I’ll mention this again, your publishing company has generously offered a discount for both of your books and we’re going to put that in the show notes, so there will be a link of where to find the books and a discount coupon code. It’s a generous one and that’s going to be available for just a little bit, so you want to jump on that right away. As much as I’m fangirling over this book, I feel kind of bad I have not yet got your second book, but I am definitely going to probably right as we get off the call. I’d love to hear about Self-Sufficient Herbalism.

Lucy Jones:

We mentioned a bit before about how I was taught by herbalists who grew and gathered their own herbs. I thought that everyone did that. When I started my practice, I was just really shocked that there were herbalists who weren’t doing that and who had been taught in a different way. I’m saying I’m shocked. I don’t want to sound in a superior way. I just was shocked. I just thought that the way that I was taught was the way. I thought perhaps that knowledge, my teacher, one of those, Edith, and then Barbara—Barbara was always planning to write a book about basically, how to grow things, how to harvest them, how to make your own tinctures and all of the things that I was taught. I was expecting her to write the book. She just didn’t seem to be writing it and then sadly, she died. I just thought someone else ought to write the book. Who’s going to write that book? It’s a really important book that needs to be written. I thought it’s not going to be me because there are people that know much more about it than me. I’m just starting out and everything.

Then a few years later, I thought nobody’s written that book! I think I need to write it up. I never set out to be an author. It’s just that I thought that knowledge is so important as it’s got to be put out there. Even if it’s just a starting point because everyone will have their own point of view about how to make a tincture or how to grow things, but it’s just like, “Hey, this is actually a way of working. It’s got so many benefits. Can we just bring that into the conversation about herbal medicine? Let’s try and be more connected to the plants?” That was it. I was a reluctant author. The plants, I feel like they encouraged me.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m so glad that they did. Two very important books. I’m excited to get Self-Sufficient Herbalism and A Working Herbal Dispensary is quite the gift. I’m so glad that the plants called you out to come work for them and write about them so that we can all benefit. Again, above this transcript, I’ll have a discount code there and links for people to find those books really easily. So, thank you and thanks to your publishing company for offering that. We’re drawing towards the end of the interview. It’s gone by so fast. I don’t really want it to end. It’s been so lovely, but I do have one last question for you and that is, “How has herbalism surprised you?”

Lucy Jones:

Well, it has surprised me. When I first started practicing, I was quite nerdy when I had learned all my herbs and understood how they worked and all the information. I really have the impression that now I’m a qualified herbalist, I’m going to use herbs to help people get better and what a great job that is.

After a while of being in practice, that felt a little bit uncomfortable because I thought actually, who am I to use those herbs and prescribe them? I get the feeling that in a lot of cases, the herbs really know more what they’re doing than I do. I thought, “Let me think of it as being a partnership.” That felt better. I felt the herbs and I are in a partnership. I also feel like that also more and more as time has gone on, I actually sometimes feel as though I’m working for them like a catalyst to help them get to the people that need them, which might sound a bit strange.

If you’re listening, I bet you’ve had the experience where a herb has popped up in your garden or when you go for a walk, there’s a herb that seems to be really prominent and then you find out—oh, my goodness! I really need that one. I just feel that this deep relationship that we have with our plant kin, we’ve always had it but we’re used to trying to be rational and that’s all woo-woo and all the rest of it. But over time, when you’re working with herbs everyday, that seeps into you and you really can’t ignore it anymore that there is this deep relationship, and when you open up to it, just incredible things can happen, sort of intuitions.

Actually, when I’m in here prescribing for patients, very often I will write a prescription out and I’ll just get this feeling there’s something missing. There’s supposed to be something else in this prescription. It’s embarrassing because the patient is sitting there and I’m trying to look all professional, “Yes. Alright, just”—there’s something trying to come through. I’m quite open with people. I say, “Actually, it just feels like there’s something missing. I’m just going to take a moment,” and then I think I hope I’m not being too weird. Sometimes I’m going to walk along my shelves and look at them and then, “Oh, yes! It was that. It was that one, of course, that needs to be in the prescription.” You think, how did that happen? I really had that intuition that something else needed to be in there.

The other example I’ll give is I’m sure others have also experienced this where it’s a certain time of the year. I suppose in the back of your mind you know that it’s ginkgo gathering time or hawthorn berries or something. You just wake up in the morning or even quite often with me it’s the middle of the night, and you think, “I must go to this particular place to gather hawthorn berries tomorrow.” It’s like there’s nothing I can do to avoid it and then you go there, and there’s all this amazing plant. They’re ready to be gathered. It’s really abundant and it’s the right time. It is just fascinating how I think we build up that kind of relationship with herbs and that really did surprise me.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love both of those. With that second one, people will often ask me, “Can you put out a calendar that tells you when to harvest plants?” I’ve probably been asked that a hundred times. I teach online so people are asking from all around the world, definitely all across North America. I do not know that answer for you. Not only that, but the only way to know that for yourself is to go out regularly and build that relationship like you’re saying. Build that knowledge base of the whole ecosystem, so that it’s like you’re—you’ve become in tune with things. You could totally take a woo-woo place. I totally respect that and probably dipping my toes in there too, but also, there is something to be said for being in tune with your ecosystem and to knowing on this other level things we might not even be cognizant of. The smell in the air, the way the birds song has changed, the way the light is shifting – all of those things are calling out to us and saying, “Go get those hawthorn berries right now before those waxwings eat every single one of them.”

Lucy Jones:

I love that. I really love that explanation. I appreciate you sharing it because I think that makes so much sense.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I have no doubt, Lucy, that you are very in touch with your ecosystem and your community and the plants themselves. That is something—you cannot buy that. You cannot rush that. There’s no short track for that. It really comes in what we might call “dirt time.” It’s putting in the time, putting in the relationship, the reciprocity that happens there. It’s such an honor to speak with you as someone who has really invested that time and is now gifting that back to us humans, so that we can learn from you and your experience as well. It has just been an absolute pleasure and delight to speak with you.

Lucy Jones:

Thank you so much, Rosalee. It’s absolutely an honor. I have just been in fangirl heaven this whole time.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Likewise, likewise. Thanks again, Lucy.

Lucy Jones:

Thanks.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Thanks for being here. Don’t forget to head over to download your beautifully illustrated recipe card above the transcript of this show. Also sign up for my weekly newsletter, which is the best way to stay in touch with me.

You can find more about Lucy’s offerings at myrobalanclinic.com and also check out both of Lucy’s books. I highly recommend them.

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I deeply believe that this world needs more herbalists and plant-centered folks, and I’m so glad that you’re here as part of this herbal community. Also, a big round of thanks to the people all over the world who make this podcast happen week to week:

Emilie Thomas-Anderson is the Project Manager who oversees the entire podcast operation from guest outreach, to writing show notes, and on and on. I often tell people I just show up! Emilie does most of the heavy lifting. 

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It takes an herbal village to make it all happen including you. Thank you so much for your support through your comments, reviews and ratings. 

One of my favorite things about this podcast is hearing from you. I read every comment that comes in and I’m really excited to hear your thoughts about marshmallow and this conversation. 

Okay. You’ve lasted to the very end of the show, which means you get a gold star and this herbal tidbit.

For this herbal tidbit, I thought I’d read a section of my own marshmallow herb monograph and I do have a video, a solo video about that on the podcast and YouTube. Here’s the excerpt about marshmallow for wounds:

Marshmallow root is a powerful healer for the skin. It’s long been considered a powerful topical treatment for wounds and burns. In the past, it was called, mortification root, because of its ability to prevent gangrene. The marshmallow herb was used historically to prevent gangrene. You don’t commonly see it used for antimicrobial applications in modern herbalism. In addition to this historical use, modern day research is shedding light on marshmallow’s antimicrobial features. In a study which looked at 16 different herbs and their ability to address things like E. coli, a common gut and urinary tract infective bacteria, the researchers remarked that some of the results were unexpected. Althaea officinalis, marshmallow, affected microbial metabolism in spite of the lack of literature precedent. Well, they didn’t know where to look. 

King’s American Dispensatory written in 1898 writes: 

“Externally, marshmallow root is very useful in the form of poultice to discuss painful inflammatory tumors and swellings of every kind whether the consequence of wounds, bruises, burns, scalds or poisons, and has, when thus applied, had a happy effect in preventing the occurrence of gangrene. The infusion or decoction may be freely administered.”