What is Lobelia Used For?
with joAnna Sanchez

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You’re in for a treat! In this episode, I had such a delightful conversation with joAnna Sanchez, who has been “beckoned by the plants,” as she so lovingly puts it, for decades. She shares such hope for the world, gained through her work with the plants and relationships with other students of nature, and her positive attitude is infectious – I found myself just beaming after speaking with her!

I was thrilled that joAnna chose to speak about Lobelia inflata, a plant that she has been working with closely for many years. She had so much to share about it – not only its medicinal benefits and tips for working with it, but also some fascinating history of this often-maligned herb. joAnna included her recipe for Lobelia Acetract, and you can download your beautifully-illustrated recipe card for this traditional preparation from the section below.

Lobelia is a diminutive plant with some big effects! Here are some of the ways lobelia has been worked with both historically and in modern days:

► As a respiratory antispasmodic, to help with asthma and coughing

► To relax the nervous system, reducing muscle twitches and tics

► To help stop smoking and give support with nicotine withdrawal

To learn even more about what is lobelia used for, be sure to check out the entire episode!

By the end of this episode, you’ll know:

► Why lobelia is infamous in the herbal world (and why, despite its notoriety, it’s such an amazing plant!)

► Why you should only work with lobelia in low doses

► What makes lobelia a great plant for herbal skeptics

► An old-fashioned but still relevant herbal preparation for lobelia

► and so much more…

For those of you who don’t know her, joAnna’s herbal journey began in 1979 in the natural food industry, managing food co-ops and representing botanical companies while reading voraciously about herbalism. In 1997, she joined the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, where she wrote about and taught botanical medicine, started what is now the largest plant medicine garden in the Southwest, and launched an herbalism program offering both personal interest and professional training. A passionate educator, plant hunter, production gardener, and conservation herbalist, joAnna combines decades of experience with a commitment to teaching and preserving herbal traditions through her 100-hour and 750-hour accredited programs.

I’m so excited to share our conversation with you today!

-- TIMESTAMPS -- for What is Lobelia Used For

• 01:12 - Student spotlight
• 02:38 - Introduction to joAnna Sanchez
• 04:00 - joAnna’s plant path
• 16:36 - Medicinal benefits of lobelia
• 33:55 - Lobelia’s emetic quality
• 35:13 - Lobelia Acetract recipe
• 39:18 - Formulating with lobelia
• 44:38 - joAnna’s current projects
• 49:17 - How herbs instill hope in joAnna
• 56:05 - Herbal tidbit

Get Your Free Recipe!

Connect with joAnna

• Phone at Botanica Herb School | (623)465-7359

Transcript of the 'What is Lobelia Used For' Video

Rosalee de la Forêt:
Hello and welcome to the Herbs with Rosalee Podcast, a show exploring how herbs heal as
medicine, as food and through nature connection. I’m your host, Rosalee de la Forêt. I created
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Rosalee de la Forêt:

Okay, grab your cup of tea and let's dive in.

Well, I just wrapped up this interview with joAnna, and I swear I'm glowing just from being in her presence. This was my first time meeting her, and I just couldn't have been happier that I got the chance. And now I'm thrilled to share our conversation with you. One of the things that stood out for me was joAnna's deep appreciation for lobelia. She has so much respect for this little plant that has this big reputation, and she just shared an incredible mix of history, personal stories, and practical wisdom. So whether lobelia is an old friend or a complete mystery to you, I think you'll love this interview as much as I did.

For those of you who haven't yet met joAnna Sanchez, her herbal journey began in 1979 in the natural food industry where she managed food co-ops, represented botanical companies, and immersed herself in herbal books. By 1997, she brought her passion for plants to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, where she wrote and taught about botanical medicine, established what is now the largest plant medicine garden in the Southwest, and launched an herbalism program offering both personal and professional training. A dedicated educator, plant hunter, production gardener, and conservation herbalist, joAnna blends decades of hands-on experience with a deep commitment to teaching and preserving herbal traditions through the creation of her accredited one hundred hour and seven hundred and fifty hour programs.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

joAnna, thank you so much for being here. I am really excited to chat with you.

joAnna Sanchez:

Thank you, Rosalee. It's a pleasure.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Well, it's my pleasure as well. We were just chatting a bit about – I feel like we just are coming from entirely different ecosystems. I'm in the snowy mountains of Washington state close to Canada. You're in the Sonoran Desert, and I'm excited to hear about how that has shaped your herbal path and your connection to the plants as well. And that's where we could start really is just how did you find yourself on this plant path?

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. So it began as a child, and I think my story is very similar to what happens for herbalists is that, I, unlike those in my household or on my street, had this uncanny attraction to all the plants. And no one else even noticed the beautiful flowers on the horse chestnut or the dandelions in the lawn or just the beautiful – I was raised in New England in the woods, and so I had lots of beautiful perennials and annuals and I just couldn't stop. You know, I love the sugar maple that was in my father's backyard and the weeping willow. You know, I loved pulling on its strong and flexible, limbs. And so it began as a child, but, in my early twenties, I moved to the Sonoran Desert. So I have been here for many decades now, and it's often, charming maybe is a word to say. People say, you know, go ask, joAnna Sanchez about this plant or that plant. She's the desert expert.

And I think, isn't that funny? A young gal from New England, but, I've been here so long that these have become – this is the materia medica that I know intimately, walking around in the desert. And what's food and what's medicine and what's toxic? There are a few of those in the desert for sure, like every habitat. So, and I think, you know, I heard, Sajah Popham say the other day on a talk that he was beckoned. I think that's just perfect. You know? We're called, you know, plant folk. And so I was as a child, and I just never – it was discouraged sometimes, it was encouraged other times, but I just never lost the interest or the attraction or – you know, I just can't imagine a world without plants.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That's beautiful. And so how did that unfold? Like, you leave home. You go to the Sonoran Desert. How did you start working with plants?

joAnna Sanchez:

Well, my first educational training was in social work, but I kept taking plant science courses. And, so I was able to hang out with the botanists at the universities. And my second degree was in forestry and wildlife management in New England. So I started in an educational path in terms of the academics of the study of the plants. And when I moved to Arizona, I fortunately started in the natural food industry and worked as a retailer and a broker for a long time and was able to meet a myriad of people who are influential in the earlier generation of herbalists, if you will. And so that was a wonderful thing to be, working side by side from chemists and naturopathic doctors and herbalists, that afforded me the opportunity to study with them.

But also, I got all kinds of invitations, locally from our great western master, Michael Moore, invited me to join him on his teachings. And so I got to follow him around in the Southwest for a few years, and the Tierras, Leslie and Michael invited me to workshops and things like that because of my presence in the natural food industry as a broker and a retailer and like that.

So I spent a good more than a dozen years doing that kind of work. And then I slowly evolved my personal study. I think a lot of my generation of herbalists are mostly self taught, even though I've been around many and, befriended some and professional associations with many of the wonderful people who really bring the American herbal renaissance to the fore. So I had the opportunity to be in their company and to learn with them, from them and with them. And so that led me to doing, by request, consultations. And so I did that for – I had a private practice – seeing clients for about thirteen or fourteen years. And somewhere near the end of that, I realized that it would be important to get more than one person at a time because as herbalists, we're educators and not, I'm not a licensed practitioner, and so I couldn't practice medicine. But I was very supportive to my community and their health goals with botanicals primarily, but also because I had worked in the natural food industry.

I knew dietary supplements as the broad category that the herbs are legislated under. And so clinical work brought me to educational work where I could bring a larger audience to the same kinds of topics. Some of those brokerage companies, larger companies would fly me around to do large audiences and the topics: colds and flus and immune system and female care and all the things that we learn in those large understandings of the groupings of the materia medica. And, that led to me doing at first private, educational work for three or four years and then partnering up with a local private community college where I started my herb school that I ran for twenty seven years, and also began writing courses at the – which is what is now the Sonoran University, was then the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. So they invited me to write a few courses, but there were no – and teach them – no medicine plants on that campus when I arrived twenty eight years ago. So the first thing I did was politely escort the maintenance man to dig up some plots for me and not put in just ornamentals. And now it's the largest medicine garden in I think the Southwest, but certainly in Arizona, over almost 4,000 square feet of medicine plants that are used in the labs there for the education at the university for the naturopathic candidates, but also for the school that I just bequeathed forward.

My – it was Botanica Herb School, and now it's Panacea Herb School. And so those students intern in that cultivation space and learn international herbs, herbs that we didn't think we could grow in the desert, but it's remarkable. Some of the water loving herbs like gotu kola and bacopa thrive in our garden there.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wow.

joAnna Sanchez:

So the students the students are able to know hands on with the living plants some of the medicines that we use in many different traditions, locally and internationally. So it's a wonderful learning place. And so I I had the good fortune of running an herb school and having hundreds, thousands, I don't know, of students come through old fashioned hands on training. The students learned for about sixteen months. So it was a very good overview of herbalism with a beautiful classroom and apothecary and kitchen preparation place and a wonderful library that I was able to grow over the years. And so mostly I have been an educator.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love that story, joAnna, and I love this presencing what it has been like for you to build something for twenty seven years and this idea of you getting the maintenance person to dig up some plots of land for you. And, I mean, at that point – so I have to ask, did you get permission, or was that just on the side?

joAnna Sanchez:

I didn't. You know, it's funny. I didn't get – I never even – didn't think of that. You know? I don't know why. I didn't. I just said I need that spot. Don't put whatever you’re putting there, that's gonna be for me. And he was like (makes grumpy face) but no, I never really asked permission. But the school was all in favor because it was a naturopathic medical school, and one of their modalities is botanical medicine. And so then, eventually, I got a staff and, now I'm still with the university some. And so I have a staff, a full staff of gardeners, and it's an integrated part of the training there as well as the science, the lab. It's a research university as well. So it's funny you asked that, but no.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That was very rebel herbalist of you. Like, as soon as you said it, I was like, I bet she didn't ask.

joAnna Sanchez:

I did not. Because the hierarchy of asking, it would have taken forever.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Well, the the plants probably beckoned you.

joAnna Sanchez:

That's right. Yes. They requested to be visitors.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love this idea of young joAnna being, like, “How about we just dig up this on the sly or whatever, and then that becomes a 4,000 square foot garden that's one of the biggest in the Southwest. And I mean, that's just – I think it's always great for everybody to hear that. Like, these ideas start small, and they grow with time. And to not be intimidated by the end product that we see, but to just get started, and illegally dig up land to plant plants. I think that's the takeaway.

joAnna Sanchez:

That's right. Yeah. Because in both instances, for my Herb School I – with the gal that I partnered with, she said, “Let's do a hundred hours.” I said, “No. Let's do thirty and see if there's an interest.” And now it's 750 hours. And I didn't have that big vision of either of those things. Starting with nothing and then bringing it – it's all about the calling, and the plants, and being able to do the work.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Oh, that’s beautiful.

joAnna Sanchez:

How fortunate I am, that I was able to create those two things and be an avenue for learning.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

And then to have thousands of students that have been through your courses and spent your time with you. I know it's very influential. Beth, who I – Ebbing – who I'd interviewed a couple months ago. I mean, you were her big start, and it still is something I can see that just deeply influences her heart to this day.

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. And they had a little – I sold and passed my school forward just recently, and they had a little gathering on my behalf. It was so wonderful to see students, some of them from the very first program. And several of them in individual private conversations, they said it has had a rippling effect. Like, one woman owned a little herbal manufacturing facility and employed six herbalists. So there were seven people who had been through the curriculum and the program and learned about herbs, and now they're all carrying it forward. So it's just a wonderful thing.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That is really wonderful. Well, now I would love to hear about lobelia. I'm so thrilled that you chose lobelia as your plant. This is such an amazing plant, somewhat misaligned plant historically. Yeah. So I'm just really excited to hear what you have to share about lobelia.

joAnna Sanchez:

So you're right. That's a very good way to say that – it has been misaligned historically. So, I – lobelia is in the Campanulaceae family. And I only know two plants that I have a familiarity with that family: the harebells, which is just an ornamental, and codonopsis, which is a wonderful herb that we've learned from the Chinese tradition. So, anyway, it's kind of a not obscure, but an unusual family for the plant medicines. And the official species is the inflata, which is what is in the eastern part of The United States and North America.

And there's also a species here in the Southwest, called cardinalis. So we have the blue flowered, which is a little bit more diminutive plant, and the red flower, that's the real tall one, but they are, for the most part, interchangeable. The cardinalis – the red flowered – is not as strong. So, the official is what's used. And so I wanted to speak about lobelia because I wanted to give testimony. I wanted to be sure that I was speaking out about a plant that my cells, my body knew intimately so that I could express my understanding of the plant. So, this is a plant that, like, when your helper, Emilie was asking me about, “Give some ideas about the taste.” I remember when I was an early clinician, you know, with children, I would tell them, “This is not going to taste good” until I learned to to add corrigents and make them taste sweet and stuff like that.

But in the early parts, it was, “But it's gonna make you feel better, you know? And so take your medicine when your mama gives it to you.” So it's kind of like that with lobelia, this acrid, very not pleasant flavor. And then many folks I find, even though the fire cider is a phenomenon, lots of folks don't like vinegar either. And the best way to deliver the lobelia, fresh plant, aerial parts of the plant, both the historical references from even before the eclectics, the Thomsonians, for instance, Samuel Thomas, who was a farmer, self taught, kind of rustic person who brought – we often trace our lineage to Samuel Thomson as herbalists. He learned from the indigenous folks in his area. He was from New Hampshire, so the Penobscots were the Indians that taught him, and the references always list this widow Benton. So I hired a librarian at the Lloyd Library to dig through the literature to see if they could find widow Benton, or more about her, but all we have is those few words that the widow Benton taught Samuel Thomson.

So we have this two hundred years of use of lobelia, and he got into trouble. I mean, he got arrested for using lobelia. And so on one hand, I don't want to scare, but this is a plant to respect as a medicinal agent, and the taste of it tells us that. But it is powerful and effective. So powerful in that we should use it in low doses, effective in that it works almost immediately. It has an affinity. Well, I get some of – one of the most important actions, if you will, of this herb is that it is antispasmodic. So powerful for all kinds of spasms, but it has an affinity to the respiratory system and the nervous system.

So, the respiratory system, I feel this is contemporary – has contemporary importance because we have lots of long term coughs and respiratory things, residual from the COVID, for instance. Here where I live, our respiratory winter viruses often affect the upper respiratory system. So here's a plant that can serve well both the symptoms of the coughing as an antispasmodic and the way that it can just relax the lung tissue. But also it is a plant that is antispasmodic, so relaxing tissue in the nervous system. And so that's where my personal story overlaps with lobelia. And it has been an ally and a friend to me for more than two decades at this point – or almost two decades at this point, as for the artifacts, the residual concerns, health concerns, from having had a very severe condition with Lyme disease. And so the artifacts for me were Tourette's and twitches and involuntary nervous system responses. And so, I have had the fortunate circumstance of being able to receive the gift of lobelia in the immediacy of the ability for it to calm the musculature.

So that would be the physical, how it how those symptoms come about, but also the way it relates to the nervous system. So this is a plant that we use in very small doses. You can do a tincture. Fresh is always best with lobelia. Tinctures are more like – even though you're using fresh, the ratio of the plants to the solvent here is broader than what we would normally expect for a fresh plant. Because the fresh plants bring so much water, we usually add more alcohol. But in this case, we'd make it weaker because the plant is so strong. So a weaker, almost tincture like presentation hydroalcohol of the lobelia or the acetum or the acetract, using the apple cider vinegar, and I think that's the recipe that you'll share.

I find that vinegar is just as quick, but it is much less likely to induce what would be the contraindication. And this is part of why lobelia got maligned is that it is an emetic. And an emetic is not often needed, but if it was, then yay that you can get the poison out of your system by vomiting. And so unlike some of the other potential toxic herbs, we call this a low dose or a toxic herb like rauwolfia or lily of the valley or datura. Those herbs are not gonna warn you with the powerful, potential poison that they can be if they're misunderstood. But lobelia, if the toxicity is – you're gonna vomit before you get the toxicity in your bloodstream. So, yay, it's almost like a quality of that gift, from that plant. So we have this wonderful ability to calm all kinds of paroxysms, particularly that of asthma.

I wish I had known about this plant as a young child because I had asthma pretty severe from when I was about three to 17 years old. And just when I read about some of the old literature from the Thomsonians, Samuel Thomson himself and doctor Coffin, his protege, and some of those folks. They'll talk about clients, patients of theirs who had to sit up all night with asthma. Well, that was exactly how it was for me as a child. And so those folks who unfortunately, would be able to relate to that, that's exactly the kind of asthma, bronchial constriction and pressure on the chest that lobelia supports. And it just takes a little bit, you know, half a mil. Sometimes that's all that's needed is one dose. And I've read lots of doctors' accounts even when the Eclectics adopted the use of lobelia, how even in pregnancy – a woman, for instance, one of the cases I read, suffering from severe coughing in her last trimester of pregnancy and just one dose of the of the half a mil of the lobelia extract.

They used to use – the Eclectics used it with strawberries, and they made it, like, kinda sweet. And then they used half seed and half, living, live, aerial portions and then mix it all together and dispensed it that way. And just one dose of that, helped a woman. And many accounts I've heard of, if you read the works of Doctor Christopher, John Christopher, who in the forties, fifties, and sixties really kept herbalism alive as a kind of a foot soldier troubadour for herbalism. He spoke – he was in the lineage of the Thomsonians – but he spoke of lobelia as having a brain, that it can think, that it knows where to go. And oftentimes people, when I've used it with others, will say, “Oh, I can feel it in my fingers. I can feel it in my toes.” Right away, it gets into the bloodstream, and it's diffusive.

So it goes from the center all the way to the periphery, and folks can tell. They know that that herb is in their bloodstream when it is. And doctor Christopher said that it addresses the causes, and I believe that. And so many people with asthma no longer had asthma once they found lobelia historically in the records, and I've observed that in my clinical work is that it addresses the reason. And not everyone would have the same reason for having a respiratory infirmity, but lobelia can find that. And so to say that about a plant really sounds like, “Oh, that that's an herbalist talking,” how we understand the spirituality and the energetic qualities. You know? And the nice thing – in terms of energetics – about lobelia is that it's neutral. So it's not gonna overheat or constrict with coldness for the individual user. It's just very neutral. So I don't know. I guess I've rambled on for a while there.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That was great.

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. So antispasmodic activity of the lobelia is very important, but also it's in that work, especially with respiratory illnesses is that it's a wonderful emetic – expectorant, excuse me. And again, I've seen huge amounts of mucus come from people's lungs when nothing else did it, all the other expectorants. Or, lobelia works well in combination. And so added to a respiratory formula that it wasn't used before, all of a sudden you have this thinning of the mucus and this capacity for the body to shed away what's been compacted and causing constriction in the lungs and in the respiratory system.

And then I think a noteworthy utilization of lobelia is for tobacco withdrawal. So the alkaloids, there are several of them, but the most noteworthy one is the lobeline – and that's in both the cardinalis and in the inflata – has a wonderful way of mimicking and stimulating the vagus nerve in the way that nicotine does. So people are able to get relief from the cravings of nicotine because it's so powerfully addictive, as well as support the withdrawal by using small amounts. In this case, very small amounts because it'll trigger the nicotine overdose kind of side effects, which are nausea and dizziness. And so you have to be very careful with Lobelia for nicotine withdrawal. You don't have to in the same way with the respiratory and expectorant applications of it.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I love that you mentioned how quickly it acts because for people who might not be as familiar with herbalism, I feel like that's a common complaint just out of unknowing. They'll say, “Oh, herbs take too long to work.” You know, something like that. And I think lobelia, as you said, is a great example of an herb that doesn't take too long to work at all. I mean, the effects are immediate.

joAnna Sanchez:

Right.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

It is such a great one for students to study too because of that acrid taste and also when we're tasting herbs to feel them in our bodies. Like for me, when I taste something like ashwagandha, I'm not like, “Wow!” You know? Like, “That all of a sudden created this response in me,” but lobelia is one that does create an immediate response.

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. Right. It's talking to us.

So sometimes we do have to wait for our healing, especially if it took a long time to get us to it. But in the case of lobelia, it can be very rapid and life changing. But also, as I said, it has been my ally for a very long time, and I've had to – it accompanies me everywhere at home and in my travels, and, yet I can have – so the backstop to, yes, this is a low dose botanical and it's very strong, but I can use lot large doses of it safely, and I have been using it for a very long time to nourish and balance my nervous system's response left over from the spirochete that made me very ill. So how fortunate that we can get straight to my nervous system and shut off a screaming attack of Tourette's, unfortunately but fortunately that I have this herb to work with and, for me.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yeah. Thank you. And it's a gift to all of us for you to share that. I've never heard lobelia worked with in that way. So thank you so much for sharing that. I'm curious with its nervous system response, have you worked with it for something like anxiety and calming the nervous system in that way?

joAnna Sanchez:

It may be similar to, like, a Rescue Remedy, the flower essence medicines, short term. But if it's used for that, what often happens is you have to do repeated doses. It's like having a just a little bit of kindling on a fire, and then it goes out and you gotta keep stoking the fire, stoking it to make fire so that there's enough energy in the body, you know, circulatory energy. So it could be used in an emergency for that, but it wouldn't address – because that's not its affinity. So it's not gonna address the underlying causes of where that might stem from. But in an emergency, I would say, yes. It could be helpful to someone to just calm them right down. And then maybe they can move forward on their own or seek out some other remedies or support.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That's beautifully said. Just kind of in both the gifts and the boundaries there in terms of what we can expect.

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. Because every plant has its talent, and also places where it just doesn't have an affinity to.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I definitely think of lobelia for the respiratory system. I think it really shines there as you beautifully stated as well.

I'm curious. I have a couple of questions for you. One is about the emetic quality of it. I've taken lobelia quite a bit, but always in smaller amounts, you know, drops at a time, for example. And I've never had an emetic effect from it. And I've heard that possibly the emetic effect is more possible, of course with larger dosages, but even I've heard maybe with a tea, it might be more susceptible. And then I've heard the dose can be quite large. So I'm just curious. Have you seen that effect? Maybe some people are more susceptible than others too, perhaps.

joAnna Sanchez:

So I find that the tincture is strongest. The acetic, acetract will diminish that emetic nausea. And the tea is really dependent on the user. So I've had no effects sufficient to what we would be looking for, and too much all from tea. So I think that that has to do with the individual chemistries of people meeting up with the chemistry of the lobelia. So I can't speak to it across the board.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Okay. Well, that's still interesting to hear.

Let's talk about the acetum. So that's the recipe you've shared with us. Thank you so much for sharing that recipe. And for listeners, you can go above this transcript to download your beautifully illustrated recipe.

It's rare that an herb is specifically recommended as an acetum, but lobelia is one of the plants that is traditionally recommended in this way. I was just wondering if you could speak to that. You have already a little bit, but I just wanted to look at it a little closer.

joAnna Sanchez:

I find we stand on the shoulders of some greats. And so we're so fortunate that if we look back in time, we can continue to learn from those folks who came before us. And when we look to the literature where Samuel Thomson would have claimed that he introduced lobelia to us even though he was taught by some indigenous folks and and practitioners, if you will, village practitioners where he was raised. So we have two hundred years of observation, and that's how they did it then as well. So we've learned from our tradition how to dispense. And it just works so well that way, with the vinegar that I follow suit. And certainly contemporary folks like – a place where I often will order it because I don't have a GMP facility – here locally in Sedona, Arizona, they also make an acetract of it.

So a fine pharmacist herbalist who's preparing the tinctures according to some old traditions, eclectic literature, and contemporary pharmacy are doing it that way. So there's a lot of confirmation for its use as a acetic acid. I don't know if that's adding any more knowing to you.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Well, it's it's fascinating to know that and, again, you know, some herbs are maybe not recommended as a vinegar, but we have this vinegar extract, but lobelia –

joAnna Sanchez:

Because vinegar is a poor solvent in some circumstances for the constituents. But, for these alkaloids – there's a volatile oil in the seeds, which is very important to the expectorant quality and for this withdrawal from nicotine for it to have an effect on the brain.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Well as you say the seeds, every time someone says lobelia seeds, I think of the first time I tasted lobelia seeds. I will never forget that moment. I had grown the plant myself. I got seeds from Strictly medicinals and grew it because I wanted – I'd been reading about it, and I wanted to experience it. And it's not something you find everywhere. So I grew it myself and then was just so excited when the seeds got there.

And I think I just had that young herbal excitement where I was just ready to do anything without questioning. I think I'm still a little bit like that, but at the time, I just didn't think about it. I was like, “Okay! We got the lobelia seeds!” and popped into my mouth. And you never forget that first taste. It's so intense. The acridity. I mean, I'll just never – you know, that is a great way to introduce yourself to acridity.

So I definitely recommend to folks, taste lobelia, get a sense for it. And, again, it's a fun plant in that you will immediately feel the effects of it as well. There's a lot of learning in that.

joAnna Sanchez:

It's also a beautiful plant. Those little – the dorolla with the beautiful – it's two lipped, and it's got beautiful three lobes hanging and it's pretty, pretty, the blue and the red. The red that we have here.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

The red is so striking as well. Absolutely.

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. Striking. Striking. Exactly. Yeah. It's not – some herbs, I do have to say, some herbs are like cure-alls, but the Hispanic folks who use the cardinalis here, they call it “curado todo” which really is like saying it cures everything. It cures everything that it can cure. So the things that it's specific for, it is so – it reaches to the depths of the circulatory system and the organs and the whole organism, meaning the whole body.

I tend to – it seems a little naive or quaint to say it has a brain, but it's like, wow. It's just so intelligent. I've seen it – people with pains in different places and constrictions in different parts of the body, and that's where the lobelia sends either the herbs that it's in combination with or as a simple. It's not a plant that's often used as a simple, directly in clinical work. So my individual experience with it is a little atypical. It's more often put in pairs, and then it acts as a driver, and so it'll help, for instance, catnip with – lobelia/catnip pair will help with cerebral spasms, for instance.

Or if you were using it for the lymphatic system, it could pair with bayberry, for instance, or pleurisy and lobelia are very good to relax the lungs like that. You know, it really directs and steers the herbs that it is put with, and in the literature with the physiomedicalists, for instance, it often was used that way, to steer the action of the other herb to be very specific because of the understanding that lobelia had this wisdom that it could figure out where it was needed in the body.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Would you know – when it was used in these duos like this, or when it is today, is it a fifty-fifty kind of thing, or is it, more like a one to three or something like that?

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. You mean herb to herb?

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yeah. Like, if you’re using the two herb ratio –

joAnna Sanchez:

Almost always, it would be lobelia in a very small portion of the formula to maybe up to 20%. So, you know, one to four like that, whereas it has a big voice or a big energetic, and it can do its job in small doses. And it teaches us that as a simple because we don't need much to get reaction that we're looking for, for each dose. And then it teaches us that in in formulation as well.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I don't know that I've ever talked to anybody who had such an affinity for lobelia because it is so specific, and it is – it's not a lemon balm. It's not a chamomile.

joAnna Sanchez:

Or ashwagandha.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yeah. Yeah.

joAnna Sanchez:

That's been a really big herb for the last I don't know, maybe a decade now. Or more maybe. But, yeah, you're right. It's not. But it has its place in the materia medica, and it's invaluable to know about it if you need it.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yeah. I'm so glad you chose this plant to share with us, joAnna. Is there anything else you'd like to share about lobelia before we move on?

joAnna Sanchez:

Let's see. I think I mostly covered all of it. I keep thinking of Samuel Thomson. He was arrested because of this plant. So, you know, perhaps you know that. And, Mr. Ezra Lovett passed away. Unfortunately, he had been treated by all the regulars who couldn't. And when he was – and that weakened him so much because whatever they were using, antimony or mercury or I don't know what, had really weakened this patient to the point where his life force was probably diminutive.

And then he got administered lobelia and passed away, but it probably had nothing to do with the lobelia. And sure enough, Mr. Thomson was acquitted of this, because of lack of evidence and all of that. But I guess my point is that he brought this “poison.” His notoriety was because lobelia was seen as a poison because of this emetic effect. And yet later, it was adopted for that effect and put into the pharmacopeia in, shortly after the U.S. Pharmacopeia started in the eighteen twenties. So here we have an herb that had its rightful place all along. So, yeah, not such a one of notoriety, but useful to us.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that.

joAnna Sanchez:

You're welcome.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Well you've just passed along your school that you've been involved with for decades, and what's is on the menu now as you look forward and maybe some plant projects or things you might be working on?

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah. I think  I've been called. I never asked. I didn't know to ask for this work. I have been called to it, beckoned by it, and have fortunately answered the call all along. And so about two years ago, I was strolling along, picking some berries in the woods, and I realized that I needed to be a plant hunter. And so I really, I have had a very social career, with students and students and students, and it has been such a rewarding, opportunity. And I have been graced with the ability to be the conduit as a representative for the plants.

And now I feel called to more a solitary pursuit to go. So it's not like I have this grandiosity, idea of what's the next step. My next step is to step back. I fortunately, as I've been aging, feel that I can step into nature's pace, which I wasn't able to do when I was growing school and gardens and students and all of that. And now I feel that I am better equipped to be able to listen better and to go back to the herbs that I've had familiarity with or those that I have not yet had the opportunity to meet and explore. And so that's a big part of what's next for me. Although, as soon as I sold my school, I've been asked to do – I have, like, four or five things right in front of me to do, public presentations. So I will do that, especially for local communities, plant societies, herb associations, things like that when asked.

I don't think that I'm gonna solicit to expand that aspect, but I certainly, usually will agree, when requested. So some of that just to keep my teaching skills honed, I suppose. But mostly, I just want to really experience, as a true herbalist, those things that I didn't have quite enough time where I was encouraging and supporting others to get to do that, their experiential relationships. I was guiding those more than I was able to. Of course, I've been gardening all these years, and I love to be in natural habitats and traveling. And not to say I haven't been with the plants. How could I have done this work? But now I really wanna dig into that and just have that experience of the quietness and the serene pace of nature.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That's so beautiful. I'm a little envious. I definitely resonate with that a bit. So I appreciate that.

joAnna Sanchez:

Someday. I know. I feel like, oh, what a blessing. I've arrived to this place.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

And I I love that you're like, “I have dedicated decades of my life to plants,” and now your next step is to go deeper. You're like, “Okay. I've done this for decades, and now I wanna go deeper.”

joAnna Sanchez:

Yes. Now I wanna do what I was was called to do, but I've often have to shut – after six volumes of doing a – researching something, I had to close the books because I had to go to the classroom or whatever. Or being on the trail with folks learning, we only had a three hour class, so that was that. So now I can go with whatever – I don't have to stop. And I think you must know this or have this, and that don't I don't mean to be presumptuous, but to really be attracted to the plants means that we really are.

So we want to grow them and harvest them and nurture them and share them. And so there's so much more to do.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That's really beautiful. Well, I'm so appreciative that you've made the podcast part of the ways that you're sharing still. I really appreciate that. Before you go, I have one last question for you. I'm excited to hear your answer to this one, joAnna.

The question is, how do herbs instill hope in you?

joAnna Sanchez:

So I kinda have a two part answer. So the first part has to do with the people. And I came from a different – I was just a little bit younger than all the masters that we've learned from in the American herbal renaissance. So I come from a different generation of herbalists where we were self taught, and we looked to some of that old literature and we just did it. We read and we shared and like that. And I've watched how herbalism has grown in America in such wondrous ways locally, of course, with my school and then nationally with teaching at conferences and things like that. And the young people are where the hope is instilled in me because I – this is my interpretation or my reception of the herbalists today is that the younger generation, not in age necessarily, but in practice here now are full with sensuality.

And they are not afraid to have that expression, the energetics and the spirituality, as well as the physical medicine of the plants, all of it to be brought to the table. And without us using our senses, how can we be complete herbalists? And yet that to me is everywhere in the marketplace on all of the small cottage companies that are on the websites. And whenever I've seen the young folks express their herbalism, it's all about – they're into the smelling and all these beautiful recipes. We didn't know herbal mocktails until recently! The young people who are doing these wonderful things because they're full of their senses and the sensuality. How can nature not be full of sensuality? So that gives me great hope. It's being carried on. This work, this herbalism, this plant healing, is carrying on and unfolding in such beautiful ways.

And so I – we all know that these are hard times, harder times, perhaps, than decades and generations before us on a lot of levels, particularly as it relates to living on the earth. And I have hope that – I believe that the plants are our ancestors, and they have wisdoms that we don't know enough to even tap into. I feel that the hope is in the plant communities that this kingdom that we get to live with is enough, that I don't have to be afraid of being alive right now, that the plants are powerful enough. And so the hope that I get from being with the plants, the trees, the big trees, and also, you know, all the other diminutive annuals that come to us. And the young people with this strong sense of feeling, this work, I feel like, yes. Okay. There is hope. In the Spanish, it's esperanza. There is hope.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Oh, that's so beautiful, and I really resonate with that too. I'm a walker, and I spend a couple hours a day walking. And I especially, when things feel too much and too overwhelming and too dark – it's the trees these days because, you know, that's what I have right now in this snowy world – but it’s the trees. I can literally lean on them and feel some of that weight taken off and just seeing the beauty there. Just the way you said that was just really beautiful. I think that's one of the great gifts of being an herbalist is that we can turn to the plant simply for hope and simply to kinda take some of this overwhelming sense of being on this planet in this day and age.

joAnna Sanchez:

Yeah, we can trust in the power of nature.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Oh, thank you so much, joAnna, for sharing that. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here on the podcast. It's been utterly delightful to get to know you, and I'm just so appreciative.

joAnna Sanchez:

Same here, Rosalee. Thank you for including me.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Thanks for being here. Don't forget to download your beautifully illustrated recipe card above this transcript. Also sign up for my weekly newsletter below, which is the best way to stay in touch with me. And now that joAnnA is taking more time for herself, you can reach her in the hills of the Sonoran Desert. 

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Okay. You've lasted to the very end of the show, which means you get a gold star and this herbal tidbit. Well, for this episode's herbal tidbit, I decided to go to the Eclectic literature to pull out some quotes for you. The first one is from King's American Dispensatory from 1898. They write, “Lobelia is a most powerful and certain relaxant, producing general and permanent relaxation with freedom from spasms of all kinds.”

Next, we have a quote from doctor Finley Ellingwood in 1919. He writes, “Lobelia relieves pain due to spasm of any character. But in its antispasmodic and relaxing influence, it is not narcotic in the same sense as opium. It exercises a soothing influence over nerve irritability, and a distinct anodyne result ensues. General relief from pain often follows when other measures have failed. The pain from renal or hepatic stone is more quickly relieved by it and more permanently, often, than by morphine because of the general relaxation.”

And the last quote comes from doctor Harvey Wickes Felter, 1922. “If lobelia be chewed, it causes an acrid, prickling, and persistently pungent sensation in the throat and fauces accompanied by slight nausea and a feeling of warmth and distension along with the esophageal tract and in the stomach. The sensation is not very unlike that produced by tobacco. The salivary glands and those of the mouth are impressed, pouring out saliva and mucus in abundance.”

Hope you enjoyed these quotes from long ago. It's clear that when people taste and experience lobelia, it's a memorable experience. Let me know if you decide to try it.